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Post by dm1scotty on Aug 4, 2013 17:18:26 GMT -5
In my last game I went measureless for movement which means the players moved where they wanted and as far as they wanted, (I still measured some AOEs if needed). I was very happy with the result. The players quickly came around after a little resistance. I really felt the game was improved as it felt more free flowing and RPG like as opposed to war-gamey and nit picky. If people are interested I can do a vid describing the rules I have come up with for gridless and measureless.
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Aug 5, 2013 0:53:14 GMT -5
I'm definitely interested in seeing how it is going in your group.
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dmbrad
Paint Manipulator
Posts: 204
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Post by dmbrad on Aug 5, 2013 3:51:06 GMT -5
It really is a better system, I never looked back.
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thedmg
Room Planner
Posts: 327
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Post by thedmg on Aug 5, 2013 4:57:16 GMT -5
Just throw out the dice, toss the rule books and tell a story why don't you
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Aug 5, 2013 7:59:33 GMT -5
Nah, players do weird things with their hands if their no dice for them to.....umm....handle....
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Post by dm1scotty on Aug 5, 2013 9:19:15 GMT -5
I love the dice too much...lol
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thedmg
Room Planner
Posts: 327
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Post by thedmg on Aug 5, 2013 9:48:09 GMT -5
Elsewhere I mentioned my rule system "Ten" where essentially the only "rule" is that the DM decides on a number out of ten which you will need to equal or better with a D10 roll for any situation and circumstance. Basically the players describe what their characters will do and the DM applys a difficulty to achieve that. Character sheets are merely records of the characters achievements and supplies. The success or failure both lead to interesting story telling. Combat is hyper descriptive and monsters become a lot more fearsome as they are no longer just stat blocks.
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Post by m3talslime on Aug 6, 2013 20:24:58 GMT -5
I love the idea of a "Ten" system almost as much as I like a nice mathematically balanced rule structured system.
I want a system that meets somewhere in the middle of Pathfinder and Savage Worlds, I think.
My players are slowly coming around to "role-playing," but are still very goal/numbers oriented.
Suggestions??
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Post by dm1scotty on Aug 6, 2013 21:28:29 GMT -5
I just try to make memorable NPCs and interesting decisions the characters have to make or role play to bring the roll players out of their mindset. I enjoy both aspects of the game. Both roll play and role play.
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Aug 7, 2013 0:40:33 GMT -5
It's funny, my players will role-play very well during roll-play combat encounters, but take them out of that combat situation and most of them struggle and become awkward and, after a while, bored...Trying to get that right mix that allows them to develop yet not lose interest during the slower bits. much of that is on me I'm sure. Still trying to find that consistent groove after not DMing for nearly ten years... Right now that mix is at 33% role-play, 66% (or more) roll-play that they enjoy. Hopefully by the end of a few months I can swing that over closer to 50/50.
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Post by m3talslime on Aug 7, 2013 7:44:48 GMT -5
I have been told that Savage Worlds setting is really great for role-playing, because not only is combat fast and furious, but XP is not based on how many enemies you defeat/kill. I play-tested a few mock fights to get a feel for the system, and noticed that anyone could get one-shot in this combat system. Although this might seem cool at first, it worries me. Has anyone else tried this system before?
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Aug 7, 2013 10:25:29 GMT -5
Have not yet had that pleasure m3talslime... but I did have the pleasure of watching/listening to DMScotty's newest vid showcasing the no measuring style. It reminded me of the way my group plays . Only thing I would have done different was the handling of initiative, and still left movement tied into the same action as combat, instead of different phases. The style you used was very "wargamey" in that one respect. Not that I am critiquing at all, it worked awesome. I cannot wait to see more. I learn so much watching other DM's and players in action...*two thumbs up!*
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kthulu
Cardboard Collector
Painting anthro mini's
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Post by kthulu on Oct 4, 2013 22:23:23 GMT -5
I use THW WHL system, and it is a very loose system for measuring. It matters sometimes in ranged attacks, but it isn't an issue. WHL is a very enjoyable system compared to D20, which feels video-gamey.
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Post by dm1scotty on Oct 4, 2013 23:37:31 GMT -5
Savage Worlds is a fun system. I use it for a zombie game I am running and I have not found it too deadly.
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Post by dm1scotty on Oct 4, 2013 23:40:57 GMT -5
Have not yet had that pleasure m3talslime... but I did have the pleasure of watching/listening to DMScotty's newest vid showcasing the no measuring style. It reminded me of the way my group plays . Only thing I would have done different was the handling of initiative, and still left movement tied into the same action as combat, instead of different phases. The style you used was very "wargamey" in that one respect. Not that I am critiquing at all, it worked awesome. I cannot wait to see more. I learn so much watching other DM's and players in action...*two thumbs up!* My movement system was trying to model the fact that everyone would be moving at the same time then do actions instead of the standard "conga Line" turns where move+action happen.
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Oct 5, 2013 7:35:31 GMT -5
Have not yet had that pleasure m3talslime... but I did have the pleasure of watching/listening to DMScotty's newest vid showcasing the no measuring style. It reminded me of the way my group plays . Only thing I would have done different was the handling of initiative, and still left movement tied into the same action as combat, instead of different phases. The style you used was very "wargamey" in that one respect. Not that I am critiquing at all, it worked awesome. I cannot wait to see more. I learn so much watching other DM's and players in action...*two thumbs up!* My movement system was trying to model the fact that everyone would be moving at the same time then do actions instead of the standard "conga Line" turns where move+action happen. I just prefer to have my movement, or lack thereof, as part of the action. I visualize as it as the movement and action are occurring during the same 6 seconds of the round rather than as move, stop, attack. I view it as a fluid dynamic, where if movement is occurring it's part of the attack motions..i.e. footwork, positioning or whatnot. Like I said, I was not critiquing, as yours works just as well... they are just different styles. I also do individual initiatives for everyone as well. Each PC and NPC. rolls and takes its turn in order. I have found a great android program called Combat Assistant that I use for tracking initiative and npc hit points. It makes things so much easier. I wish they had a version for the PC, so I could use that instead of just my phone/ I have also started using Syrinscape as well, but I only have the freebie stuff so far. I will add the other sound sets in the near (hopefully) future. As I said, I very much enjoy watching and listening to the vids of your groups games.
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sgtslag
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Post by sgtslag on Oct 5, 2013 9:59:51 GMT -5
Role-playing, IMO, is completely independent from the rules set used -- it comes from the players, and the GM. I could type a lot of words about it, but probably the best introduction, for both players, and GM's, is a beginner's module, like N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God, from TSR, back in 1989. It is intended for newbies, but it works for any experience level of both players, and GM. The module starts out with detective work: a village is undergoing a strange personality change, among many of its residents. The PC's are tasked with finding out what is happening, who is responsible, and stopping it. I've played this module out four times, with mostly different people each time (one session had two players who'd been through it before -- they were shocked how different it played out the second time...). After the detective work uncovers who/what is behind the going's on, the PC's have a short wilderness trek to a nearby swamp, then a dungeon crawl, and a final battle with the Boss critter. Every time I ran that adventure, it played out completely different: role-playing, for me, is interactive story-telling, with the players, and the GM, writing the story together. I only use outlines/modules, to guide the plot, but the players often take it completely away from my skeleton outline, and I improvise as much as they do. Politics is heavy in my game, both on a small scale (NPC's they interact with come back, and they remember how they were treated previously...), and on a larger scale, as the PC's gain importance. Encourage your players to take copious notes on who they interact with, and when [I have a short, simple form, Personus Dramatis (ask me for a PDF copy, or make your own), for them to take short notes on NPC's -- all of whom are named, even street urchins, and beggars, as names make everyone, and the whole environment, more believable!]. Time is critical -- keep careful track of it's passage, as the PC's do not exist outside of its laws, and they will come to appreciate this, as it makes the campaign more realistic. My players are currently on a mission for their King, a personal friend. I suspect they will cross him, as King, in the next session. As their friend, he would like to ignore their mistake; as their King, he cannot, and he may order their execution! A good example of this type of situation can be seen in Henry V, by Shakespeare: Henry is King of England, and one of his closest friends steals food from some locals, while on campaign, against Henry's explicit command; as his personal, lifelong friend, he wants to forgive the man's mistake, but as King, he cannot, and he orders his execution with a nod, and tears running down his cheek, in the Kenneth Branaugh movie production of this classic play. Politics can be very dangerous, but it helps suck the players into the game like nothing else will -- it goes far, far beyond simple combat, and XP's, as motivators. The more immersive the game, the more satisfying it will be, for all. Make the PC's actions, and elimination of bad guys, matter beyond just the XP's. If they eliminate an Arch-Mage Necromancer, that creates a vacuum of power -- someone will seize upon the opportunity, but the PC's may not realize it immediately... Cheers!
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Oct 5, 2013 18:13:20 GMT -5
Sarge, does the prep work for that the bulk of the work for that type of campaign or is the record keeping during game more work? I am prepping to start a second game with my PC's as drow and I am trying to lay down the groundwork to keep track of the types of things you mention in your post above; various faction reputations, individual worth and reputation, calendars, time keeping, etc. In general, a lot of things that I normally do not worry too much about during my other games, at least not on this kind of a scale. it is feeling very daunting at the moment, probably because in the midst of it I am trying to read and learn about a system I am only vaguely familiar with (4e) and have never personally played, get the organizing prepped, minis painted and tiles and scenery made. I am hoping that things will be much easier once I get the prep work done, and everything organized.
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Post by Tuckertcs on Oct 27, 2013 20:22:42 GMT -5
I love the no-grid thing. But my players DON'T WANT IT. How can I convince them? In the next game that we play, I'm gonns make a gridless dungeon and explain it and it'll be a trial run. But how can I get them to do it if they still don't like it? In your video you said to say: "If you don't like it, sucks cause I'm the DM and if you don't like my ways then you DM." But they WANT to DM and I said no but they think it'd be fun.. Also If I say: "Take it or leave it." They might acually leave. Please help.
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Post by dm1scotty on Oct 27, 2013 22:46:58 GMT -5
Just make all the tiles and terrain without grids and they will have no choice. Also make then each a measuring stick.
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Oct 27, 2013 23:24:33 GMT -5
Exactly what DMScotty says... Give them no other options, and they'll have to just get on with it..... There really is no major difference between moving one 1 inch square and moving 1 inch, other than it eliminates unrealistic restrictions that were put into a game for supposedly simplistic reasons. I.E. it's easy to teach someone a game using boardgame features as those are already familiar to people.
For the life of me I just cannot understand the reluctance of some to think outside the box, or off the grid in this case...
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Post by dm1scotty on Oct 27, 2013 23:46:09 GMT -5
Exactly what DMScotty says... Give them no other options, and they'll have to just get on with it..... There really is no major difference between moving one 1 inch square and moving 1 inch, other than it eliminates unrealistic restrictions that were put into a game for supposedly simplistic reasons. I.E. it's easy to teach someone a game using boardgame features as those are already familiar to people. For the life of me I just cannot understand the reluctance of some to think outside the box, or off the grid in this case... Well said
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Post by Tuckertcs on Oct 28, 2013 16:02:10 GMT -5
Just make all the tiles and terrain without grids and they will have no choice. Also make then each a measuring stick. They might quit but probably only one of them would really do that. I'll try. Also What's a good way of measuring for the tiles for making the sides all have a right corner ow something? I want them nice and neat unless it's like a cave or something.
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dmbrad
Paint Manipulator
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Post by dmbrad on Oct 28, 2013 16:23:27 GMT -5
Just make all the tiles and terrain without grids and they will have no choice. Also make then each a measuring stick. They might quit but probably only one of them would really do that. I'll try. Also What's a good way of measuring for the tiles for making the sides all have a right corner ow something? I want them nice and neat unless it's like a cave or something. You can use a T square or one of those drafting triangles.
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Post by brokentoy on Oct 29, 2013 20:08:39 GMT -5
Savage Worlds is a very fun system. Very simple and straightforward. Using it as our guideline system has let my group focus a lot more on RP. It has no grid rules, nor any rules for facing. It simply states distances per round for movement. The miniature is only a marker of position and size which considers that a character is actively aware of its surroundings in combat, not standing still nor facing a fixed direction at any given time. The only reason we use a grid (sic) is that my friend's gaming mat has one and I'm not the DM at the moment so can't just toss it away (which I do when I DM; nobody complains).
Facing and 'Flanking' aren't considered at all. Flanking is abstracted as a cumulative 'to hit' bonus for each attacker adjacent to a target after the first (up to +4 with 5 enemies surrounding someone). With a bonus d6 to damage for every 4 'to hit' points rolled above the target's defense (this replaces critical hits), ganging up on someone is a very effective tactic to wear them down, which makes 'weak' but abundant enemies like goblins a lot more dangerous in melee. The only way to sneak attack someone is to actually use stealth in combat, which is something anyone can do (some better than others). Savage Worlds is a much more horizontal system than D&D thanks to subtleties like that. Even 'epic' characters can be swarmed and brought down by a goblin tribe, while they would wipe them out one-on-one.
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slurpy
Room Planner
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Post by slurpy on Nov 2, 2013 12:22:12 GMT -5
Just make all the tiles and terrain without grids and they will have no choice. Also make then each a measuring stick. For their first introduction, you might want to do a one-off adventure, so they don't have to worry about it affecting the regular campaign and can fully enjoy it. Scotty, for going completely measureless, did you bother to give any kind of bonus/penalty to PCs/monsters with non-standard movement rates? After all, that's a pretty big part of barbarians/monks/dwarves/heavy armors. . .
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Post by dm1scotty on Nov 2, 2013 14:15:05 GMT -5
I didn't slurpy.
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Post by dm1scotty on Nov 2, 2013 14:15:51 GMT -5
I will do a vid talking about how it has worked out and my philosophy on it.
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Post by francois on Nov 5, 2013 15:14:40 GMT -5
Yeah, gridless does make sense. I'd even go as far as to say that you shouldn't even need a measuring stick. The human brain does a good job of estimating distances. Thanks for opening my eyes DmScotty
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