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Post by evilolle on Jun 21, 2013 11:03:40 GMT -5
Hi guys!
When going gridless, what is the main things to consider and thing about ruleswise? I am thing about spells, movement, combat and.....wellmost other aspects of thegreat game we play?
Your, Evilolle
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Post by unclebilly on Jun 21, 2013 19:44:29 GMT -5
Main thing I like to keep in mind and remind my players is . Don't let the rules over run the fun of the game.
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Post by danielc on Jun 22, 2013 0:00:59 GMT -5
The simple truth is, there is not a lot of the rules that are so tied to grids as to be a problem going gridless. 99% of the issues I hear are more that a person is worried about doing something "new".
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Post by evilolle on Jun 22, 2013 0:39:56 GMT -5
So I dont really need to overthink anything? Just go with the flow and find out as we go? Good, that was how I intend to do so I am on the right track! Thx guys!
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kyral
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Post by kyral on Jun 22, 2013 2:08:12 GMT -5
Things I have been working to remember, "Have fun." Plain and simple, most of the "rules" can be used in either fashion, and as long as you and your players are having fun, that's the most important thing to remember...
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Post by dm1scotty on Jun 22, 2013 9:49:20 GMT -5
All great comments, gridless is best when you are not super precise. Remember it is a RPG and a not a wargame.
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thedmg
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Post by thedmg on Jun 22, 2013 10:58:31 GMT -5
The simple truth is, there is not a lot of the rules that are so tied to grids as to be a problem going gridless. 99% of the issues I hear are more that a person is worried about doing something "new". The great irony is that the game WAS gridless before they added grids so they could sell you tiles. People who get hung up on playing to the letter of the rules are reducing the fun of the game. They are not rules, they are guides. It says so on the covers of the books.
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Post by dm1scotty on Jun 22, 2013 12:35:36 GMT -5
Very true thedmg =)
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Post by danielc on Jun 22, 2013 17:53:57 GMT -5
The simple truth is, there is not a lot of the rules that are so tied to grids as to be a problem going gridless. 99% of the issues I hear are more that a person is worried about doing something "new". The great irony is that the game WAS gridless before they added grids so they could sell you tiles. People who get hung up on playing to the letter of the rules are reducing the fun of the game. They are not rules, they are guides. It says so on the covers of the books. Not sure I agree with this. Original DnD did show grids for the maps, it just did not require you to make 25mm scaled versions to play. But there have been grids sense the first edition. What 3.0 did was make it more integrated into the system and thus give the illusion that grids were needed. See the picturer of page 41 from the 1978 DnD Rulebook below. See the grids were there. It was just we were not hung up on them.
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Post by xlegionx on Jun 22, 2013 18:01:42 GMT -5
Gridless is fun. Its cool to be able to move your mini where the borderline of a space would probably be.
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thedmg
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Post by thedmg on Jun 22, 2013 18:19:29 GMT -5
Those grids were representative of scale on graph paper for designing the dungeon. 1sq = 5ft sq.
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AJ
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Post by AJ on Jun 22, 2013 18:57:06 GMT -5
As someone who used to use grids the thing I had to concentrate on was line of sight and spell area effects, what I did was just use whatever I had at hand to make rings and fan/cone markers on the play surface, and use a measuring stick or just peer down the table from the miniature's point of view.. very simple. The players took to the new freedom immediately, doing a lot more unorthodox movements, going up the sides of things, charging in curved lines, fighting tightly grouped, back to back, slipping past each other in narrow spaces.. I've had nothing but positive feedback from them and I've greatly enjoyed the subtle changes it has made to the dynamic action in the game.
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Post by evilolle on Jul 7, 2013 12:53:53 GMT -5
Sorry for the long waithing but work happend. You know, the annoying thing that uses up your sparetime and makes you leave home for hours every day? Well the few two weeks have been almost work, work and than some more. But back to the real issue.
So I am right I do not have to think every issue, spell, action pr whatever, through before a gameing session? Yout make the players know that we will remove the grids on our maps(or not use those that might be there) and maybe have more fun that usual?
Cool, I can live with that! See you on the gridless side!
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thedmg
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Post by thedmg on Jul 7, 2013 18:52:56 GMT -5
A note on charging: I would still say that a charge in 3.5d or d20 3.5d should be a straight line and not weaving. The idea of a charge is to build up speed to impact the opponent. You can't do that by weaving around things. Minor jumps over terrain is acceptable, but not tables or fallen pillars. So if the line between the two is straight"ish" then fine. At least with gridless it is straight in any direction.
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dmbrad
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Post by dmbrad on Jul 8, 2013 7:44:22 GMT -5
In my game, we do not measure anything, there are no templates. My players simply ask me "Can I shoot/move this far?, How many creatures will this spell hit? Can I do this?" I then tell them if they can or cannot do it. I grew up playing dnd with no play maps/tiles and no minis. So it is very easy for me to ignore these "rules". The reason I use tiles and minis now is just to help bring the story to life, that is the important thing. If one of my players comes up with a brilliant idea I will never say "I am sorry, you could have done that if you were 3 inches closer" This of course works both ways, meaning monsters do not have to be precise either.
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kyral
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Post by kyral on Jul 8, 2013 8:21:43 GMT -5
I have used that is all my games for D&D and Star Wars, if someone asks if they can do something, I have them explain what they plan to do, then go from there.. I always stress that if they can do it, so can the monsters... My players seem to enjoy that. In once instance a group of pirates used a move they had performed once, they loved it because they were all "THAT OUR MOVE" at the pirates and they continued to fight.
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Post by dm1scotty on Jul 8, 2013 9:13:10 GMT -5
Bravo on not using measuring at all.
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Post by belatucadras on Jul 8, 2013 9:46:52 GMT -5
After reading these posts, I think I would have to say consistency. Use whichever rules or methods or style you feel most comfortable with, but stay consistent. I think this becomes even more important the more rules you remove. If you toss out rules and do not remain consistent in you judgements then it seems you are just making arbitrary judgements which may cause dissent. I, for one, could not play dmbrad's way (no disrespect . For me, that makes it less a game and more an exercise in improvisation. If that is you thing, have fun. I and my group find joy when something fails because it is just 3 inches short. Having gone gridless intensifies this as I have incorporated the say first measure second rule. I also have to disagree with dmscotty. I think gridless can allow for greater precision since you are not bound tothe squares. RPGs may not be wargames, but that is where the foundation lays. I will allow any character to try anything and adjust DC or target numbers accordingly, but this is not an aspect of gridded or not gridded.
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dmbrad
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Post by dmbrad on Jul 8, 2013 11:25:45 GMT -5
After reading these posts, I think I would have to say consistency. Use whichever rules or methods or style you feel most comfortable with, but stay consistent. I think this becomes even more important the more rules you remove. If you toss out rules and do not remain consistent in you judgements then it seems you are just making arbitrary judgements which may cause dissent. I, for one, could not play dmbrad's way (no disrespect . For me, that makes it less a game and more an exercise in improvisation. If that is you thing, have fun. I and my group find joy when something fails because it is just 3 inches short. Having gone gridless intensifies this as I have incorporated the say first measure second rule. I also have to disagree with dmscotty. I think gridless can allow for greater precision since you are not bound tothe squares. RPGs may not be wargames, but that is where the foundation lays. I will allow any character to try anything and adjust DC or target numbers accordingly, but this is not an aspect of gridded or not gridded. And that is really my point, do what works for you and your group. If there are rules that you do not like, get rid of them. I want my game to be more of a role playing game than a board game.
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Post by evilolle on Jul 8, 2013 11:52:40 GMT -5
I remember when we had no minis, o mats and no way of knowing who was where in the combat! Exept the gm!
We had fun and played for hours. Then we read in the books that we could use minis to better know who was where. Fine, we did and hav played for years and years, but now.....this rather old looking guy enters the new thing cLled "internet" and suggests we take away the grids or even create our own playing mats/tiles?
Well it works better that way and more fun is spilled out on the table(not Mountain Dew) All hail to dmscotty!
I'm having fun creating my tiles and might bring some equipment for my holliday, though my wife cant know until its tooooo late!
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Post by belatucadras on Jul 8, 2013 12:47:49 GMT -5
And that is really my point, do what works for you and your group. If there are rules that you do not like, get rid of them. I agree whole heartedly.
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Post by danielc on Jul 8, 2013 13:14:33 GMT -5
One point I would like to make is that while I agree the grid does add a boadgame feel to a lot of the games I have played in, role playing and "grd or no grid" are not linked. Just because someone uses a grid on their table does not mean they are not role playing automaticly. And to be honest, I have seen "theater of the mind" games where the GM was so micromanaging everything that is was not role playing but rather storytelling with little or no input by the "players". Now none of these is "bad' and I really don't want to get into "badwrongfun" discussions. I just want to point out that the only way to judge what level of role play is in a game is to go play in it. I quote dmbrad again because his point is the real key IMO: And that is really my point, do what works for you and your group. If there are rules that you do not like, get rid of them.
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Post by gnomezrule on Jul 8, 2013 19:37:01 GMT -5
Currently there is one rule that hangs me up on the idea of gridless play. Attacks of opportunity. Our group has issues about minis "slipping" from one square to another as different people reach around the map. Even with the grid there are still confusing moments. Without a grid and without a bottle neck forcing movement choice how do you prevent the, "oh I don't get that close." To escape AOOs.
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Post by belatucadras on Jul 8, 2013 21:50:57 GMT -5
gnomezruleThere is still an area of threat, determined by weapon and creature. If the base of the defender is within that area, as determined by the measuring device, then the defender is affected by AoO. In my mind, nothing is changed other then the method of determining distance. Grids, measuring stick, general consensus or arbitrary ruling.
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Post by ashrothedm on Jul 9, 2013 10:31:27 GMT -5
Despite the use of the grid in the 3.0/3.5 rules, D&D was not exactly a "tactics" game. Wizards released the D&D Minis line to not only sell collectible miniatures, but to provide that tactics game play. They are now doing the same thing in the Dungeon Command line.
As evil as the grid may seem, it did provide a solid foundation for D&D combat, making it easier for public games and group play. Take a look at the AD&D 2.0 PHB sometime, and review the chapter on combat. No grid. Movement was tracked in ft. Spell effects are in units of radius, cu. ft., spherical diameter, etc. Lastly, in a quick pdf search of the 2.0 PHB rules, these words appear the following number of times: map(10) square(41) squares(0) inch(13) space(22) spaces(1) tile(0) grid(0)
I am certain that D&D was not originally a grid based game. The "grid" as depicted on the map above, was for a DM to keep their sanity, and because all of the maps used to be hand drawn, because there was no computer to do it on. Graph paper was a shortcut to intense measurement.
From the 3.5 PHB: "The game assumes the use of miniatures and a battle grid, and the rules are written from this perspective." I think that use of the word "perspective" is a very important one. You don't need to use the miniatures and battle grid. If you don't, just adjust your perspective. Shortly after it says: "Important: You don’t have to memorize this book to play the game. Once you understand the basics, start playing! Use this book as reference during play." The "Rules" don't even care if you know all of the rules.
That, I think, is the main thing to remember. Have fun, be consistent with your method, and don't sweat the rules.
My group never even noticed the grid vanish. It was always more work trying to keep them into the 5' squares.
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Post by danielc on Jul 9, 2013 12:09:11 GMT -5
I am certain that D&D was not originally a grid based game. The "grid" as depicted on the map above, was for a DM to keep their sanity, and because all of the maps used to be hand drawn, because there was no computer to do it on. Graph paper was a shortcut to intense measurement. I can not speak for others, but I was using the grid within weeks of buying my white box. I found a teacher's supply store (thanks to a teacher friend) that sold large pads of grid paper used for teaching kids. The grids were slightly smaller that the 1" we use now. Because of a lack of funds I hand drew small figures and glued them to 3/4" squares. So by 1979 my group was using a grid to help track combat/exploration. Now chainmail was not a grid game, it was a table top and used rulers to measure everything.
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argiope
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Post by argiope on Jul 9, 2013 13:06:21 GMT -5
I shifted a group of 3.5 players to the gridless play and have found that the battles move faster, flow more organically, and are more dynamic (especially since using DMScotty tile method with props). My players lived and killed by the AoO rule in the gridded world but without the grids they seem less obsessed with those sorts of attacks. They just move through the battle and make their attacks and they seem happy.
I agree with DMBrad about the value of measuring. I use measuring sticks because range for spells and hit penalties are tied to distance BUT I am not acting as if it is an exact measurement. +/- an 0.5 inch is the sloppy measuring I do. By having some measuring you keep the players thinking tactically but by being somewhat lenient on the measuring it prevents them metagaming and measuring every possible location. I like the rule DMBrad uses-
" ...I have incorporated the say first measure second rule."
Templates for cone and circular spells are a must. I bought a sheet of thin foam from the craft store and cut out the various templates from the back of the DMs guide for use in the game.
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Post by ashrothedm on Jul 9, 2013 13:51:40 GMT -5
I can not speak for others, but I was using the grid within weeks of buying my white box... So by 1979 my group was using a grid to help track combat/exploration. I wasn't saying grids were not used, but I am saying that the rules were not originally written for grids. The white box is no exception, I'm fairly certain, it makes no mention of a grid. In an updated OGL version of the pdf whitebox rules, these words show up with the following frequency: grid(0) square(0) map(3) tile(0) space(1). The 3.0 rules were written from the "perspective" of using a grid. Using a grid and expecting or requiring a grid are two different things. At best, grids in D&D prior to 3.0 were de facto standards of game play. Nonetheless, they were not, nor are they (through 3.5) shackles placed on the game. Still, bear in mind that the rules are really just guidelines for fun, which should be at the front of all game decisions. Numerous DMs restrict spell or source book usage, you could veto attacks of opportunity or threatening squares, or change flanking, require facing, etc. Just never forget that you are there for fun, and play so that it suits the group. If they love the tactic style of play, give them the grid. If they like Monty Hall, shower them with trinkets. In the OGL whitebox pdf, they have excellent rules to game by: Rule Number One: The Referee always has the right to modify the rules! Rule Number Two: Never forget Rule Number One!
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Post by ashrothedm on Jul 9, 2013 14:06:47 GMT -5
Minor follow up to the AoO issue: Just have a standing rule that if they blink from one location to another, you assume they took the shortest path. If they are taking some other path, make them state that before moving. Like chess: take your hand off the pawn, that's where it is. It should only take one or two times for it to sink in.
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thedmg
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Post by thedmg on Jul 9, 2013 17:48:07 GMT -5
In 1979 I was 2. I first played a customised version of dnd in 1991. It was more like Runequest. At the time in South Africa dnd was still considered Satanic (essentially a crime - although most of these silly laws were being reconsidered with the fall of apartheid and the release of Madiba).
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