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Post by dm1scotty on Feb 11, 2013 21:17:43 GMT -5
Check out the comments www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-251322.htmlWOW...they bashed my gridless play. I play how I wanna and if they prefer to play a boardgame instead of an RPG then that's their loss. It amazes me how hard they make gridless play out to be. All you need to remember is one square =1 inch. How much simpler can it be?
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dmnath
Cardboard Collector
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Post by dmnath on Feb 11, 2013 22:01:50 GMT -5
dont let em bother you scotty. your an intelligent crafter and an inspiration to us all. Look through history and see how many people bashed and ridiculed so many things we love and use today. It takes the courageous (?) to take the leap and bound to try something new to find something truly amazing. And while i myself have yet to go gridless, will be next session, i think your an inspiration to us all.
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Post by danielc on Feb 11, 2013 22:13:35 GMT -5
I didn't see many comments that were hard. I saw lots that were the same arguments I have always seen when people are challenged in their established norms.
Scotty, don't worry. Your revolution will keep going. ;-)
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Post by bestialwarlust on Feb 11, 2013 22:29:27 GMT -5
Some people can't think outside the box. I've been gaming for years and never needed a grid. Most of the time I never used mini's.
Now that cheap plastic mini's are easy to get and with the finding your great site I'll be using mini's more just for the visuals. At least they didn't say anything harsh about you.
Anyone who has anything unconstructive about your tips and inspiring work is just clueless.
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slurpy
Room Planner
Posts: 283
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Post by slurpy on Feb 12, 2013 1:42:11 GMT -5
Didn't really seem too bashy to me, people defended both sides. Some people pointed out how grids require less thought for things like AoE and flanking but complicate things like rays and charges, and some of those that were detracting gridless alluded to how they had never actually tried it. I definitely agree with the guy that said a grid makes it easier for new RPGers to learn and play the game.
Though I do disagree with the dude that said, "If you don't want a grid, don't play 3E/4E." Most of the rules that we enjoy have nothing to do with the grid. Doesn't the 3.5 PHB or DMG have rules for gridless? I swear I've seen them in print somewhere, in a sidebar or something.
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slurpy
Room Planner
Posts: 283
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Post by slurpy on Feb 12, 2013 1:45:39 GMT -5
Also, I'm really amused by the idea that 'grid lover' is becoming an epithet.
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Post by onethatwas on Feb 12, 2013 4:15:50 GMT -5
Every RPG system has rules for gridless. Just don't use them. That's the rule. many players of RPG's, whether it's D&D to GURPS to Savage Worlds, or whatever, have been playing without grids, or minis, for years. You don't need them, they are just a tool for those who feel it is necessary or (GASP!) prefer them. So yeah, that person who said that if you don't like grids, don't play 3.5 +...well, he/she ain't none too bright. That argument breaks so many logical fallacies it's silly.
Anyway, your comment (Slurpy) about Flanking being an issue with Gridless...easy fix: Take some easily recognized paint color, and paint it in an area that all can agree will represent the "Facing" of the mini. Now you can gauge facing (not that it is a gigantic issue most of the time...plus, the mini's *usually* have an actual front to them) and you can use the marked area as a way to eyeball flanking positions easier. It shouldn't take a genius to figure out how to factor in flanking with gridless, but if it is difficult for some, this should be an elegant solution.
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Post by traxzwolf on Feb 12, 2013 7:01:52 GMT -5
Just remember you cant please everyone all the time. They're trapped in their gridded cells and when offered the key to freedom they scoff for enslavement is all they have known and like so many....fear change.
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Post by dm1scotty on Feb 12, 2013 9:39:25 GMT -5
Just remember you cant please everyone all the time. They're trapped in their gridded cells and when offered the key to freedom they scoff for enslavement is all they have known and like so many....fear change. Grid slaves...I like it
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Post by madladdesigns on Feb 12, 2013 9:52:16 GMT -5
DM Scotty - Gridless Guru! lol!
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Post by chrisfitz71 on Feb 21, 2013 3:40:48 GMT -5
Anyway, your comment (Slurpy) about Flanking being an issue with Gridless...easy fix: Take some easily recognized paint color, and paint it in an area that all can agree will represent the "Facing" of the mini. Now you can gauge facing (not that it is a gigantic issue most of the time...plus, the mini's *usually* have an actual front to them) and you can use the marked area as a way to eyeball flanking positions easier. It shouldn't take a genius to figure out how to factor in flanking with gridless, but if it is difficult for some, this should be an elegant solution. You're confusing flanking and facing. In a 'no facing' game, you can still have flanking (a bonus for having an ally directly opposite you when you attack a foe), and the 3.5 PHB defines flanking using a gridded picture, referring to which square flanks with which square. Still, this is a lame argument against gridless play, as many have pointed out.
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slurpy
Room Planner
Posts: 283
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Post by slurpy on Feb 21, 2013 4:45:19 GMT -5
Having to ask the DM each time to judge if it's flanking or not? That would get real old, real quick. That's really the only place besides speed where grids excel, the players can tell what kind of effects are valid without wondering if the DM will say, "Hmm. . . let me get my template. . . no, it's not quite going to hit the other two with splash damage."
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Post by onethatwas on Feb 21, 2013 5:48:37 GMT -5
I realized that the suggestion I wrote was more involved with facing and not flanking after I posted it, but didn't really feel it necessary to edit it. The idea is that when you are trying to work out flanking, what areas determine qualifications for a flanking bonus could get sticky if you have one of those players in the group that likes to rules lawyer everything. So, rather than letting a rules lawyer muddy the waters, making it clear what qualifies as flanking with gridless right from the start (which may require the determination of where facing needs to be taken into account) solves the problem.
As I hinted at (at the very least), it should be a no brainer, but there are some people who like to argue over silly things like this.
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Post by chrisfitz71 on Feb 21, 2013 12:13:55 GMT -5
I should say, that was my post at the GitP forum. I was excited to share the videos as a find, and I combined it with the grid question to survey the populace. I was really surprised how little acknowledgement there was of the quality of DM Scotty's results.
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blackknight
Cardboard Collector
Vorpal Bunnies FTW!
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Post by blackknight on Mar 1, 2013 14:53:13 GMT -5
Easiest way to setup for Flanking Front and rear facing on Minis is to glue a piece of thin cardstock on the bottom showing about 1/8th of an inch outside the base. then mark the following 180 for front 60 for rear and the rest for Flanks (either side). Basically a Hex. Let the characters place facing as they wish during combat, but once move is complete their facing is also set (of course same with NPCs). then based on Inititive people move and attack and gain the bonuses for flank and rear based on the positions they can get to. I consider turning free during movement or attacking. Bob Attachments:
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Post by evilolle on Jun 8, 2013 0:49:21 GMT -5
Flanking has nothing to do with facing, right? When A has Z just in front of him and X behind, they are flanking him, but he is only facing A! Or am I wrong?
If A has Z and X on each side they are still flanking him but he is facing no one! Even this senario: A has Z on one side and X and Y on the other thay are all flanking him! ( I just hope for A thet no one of them is a Rogue)
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slurpy
Room Planner
Posts: 283
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Post by slurpy on Jun 8, 2013 1:26:18 GMT -5
3rd and 4th editions removed facing entirely from the DnD ruleset. Dunno about Next yet, but I would imagine it is still gone, for streamlining purposes.
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Post by spindoctor on Jun 12, 2013 21:33:55 GMT -5
They're right, the grids make it easier, but they also detract from the immersion. Gridless also requires a couple more braincells, and clearly those posters don't have them. It isn't difficult to figure out how to go gridless, but it's different, and different things are scary.
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AJ
Room Planner
Posts: 315
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Post by AJ on Jun 13, 2013 3:13:05 GMT -5
My players may very well have come up with many valid arguments and heart felt complaints if I had asked them if they wanted to go gridless or not.. so I didn't ask them. Because I am the DM, and I am putting in all the work to bring them a truly outstanding game experience.. so, they turned up and played. And not a word has been said, in any way, that it was a negative experience.. quite the opposite. So I can't help but think, anyone who froths at the keyboard on internet forums about the perils of gridless play.. has not actually just done it and seen for themselves that its actually a liberating experience. The players look at the terrain and think, not statistically and numerically, they engage the other side of the brain and think physically and creatively. They leap, they run in semi circles, they go up the side of an obstacle, they place flame walls in any direction they want.. the point of reference is no longer determined by the lines on the table, but on the orientation and distribution of the elements of the game world itself. They do still say "I move two down the stairs" and when I hand them the measuring stick.. next time they just reach for it automatically and say "I go to here". Its a subtle difference, but the very fact that we have all noticed that game play has become as fluid and free form as our thinking process, means that grids WERE confining, they DID influence our style of play, and bottom line, they were restrictive, not only in the physical mechanics of the game (a jagged, zig zag edged flame blast, for instance), but in the way they players thought about the game world and how to move in it.
So yeah, if someone comes at me with an argument for grids, I think I will just send them over to the war gamers and say "Tell them to put a grid on their battle field, I dare you".
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thedmg
Room Planner
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Post by thedmg on Jun 13, 2013 7:06:41 GMT -5
I had to laugh at the notion that flanking only works on a grid. I mean if you are on the opposite side of t he enemy to a friendly... How does that require a grid? You're on the opposite side…! People take the rules to seriously. The game is meant to be fun...
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Post by dm1scotty on Jun 13, 2013 9:42:54 GMT -5
Yeah, I have never had a problem with gridless flanking.
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Post by danielc on Jun 13, 2013 12:43:27 GMT -5
I have to confess, I love my grids..... in the right place. I can't imagine chess without the grid. What a pain measuring the movement for my pawns. I love my grids on my excel spreadsheets. I can't imagine trying to read them without the grids. Or trying to build the formulas without grid points.
But just because I love my grids in some parts of my life does not mean I have to use them in every part. Tabletop wargames do not need a grid. In fact when they try to force it it often fails (see Dust for an example) RPGs don't need a grid. Not that you can't use them in RPG games, they are just not "required".
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Aug 4, 2013 3:44:25 GMT -5
3rd and 4th editions removed facing entirely from the DnD ruleset. Dunno about Next yet, but I would imagine it is still gone, for streamlining purposes. Did 3rd initially? Because I know when we played it way back before we all took "new parent sabbaticals" ( Had kids that took up all of our time for a good 5 years or so), and just prior to the 3.5 changes that came down the pipe, my group of D&D, AD&D, and 2e vets continued to play it as: "If you were behind an enemy (opposite his facing*) or had an ally directly opposite you on the opposite side of your opponent/target, you were flanking and got your bonuses and/or sneak attack." Now, to be fair we didn't play on a grid then, and had only just begun to really use minis to represent our chars rather than just visualizing the whole thing in our heads, as we had from the beginning. In fact, I recall being under the impression that the whole grid thing that was listed in the appendix of the PHB in the "Role Models" section was, at that time, considered "optional" rules and provided as a way to visually explain certain rules. I'll need to dig out my books and check and see if they are 3.0 or 3.5 eds and see if what I recall was correct. I can't speak for 4th ed as I was on hiatus when it came out and I only looked at it briefly before deciding that Pathfinder was the way I wanted to go/stay with when we got the group back together and playing again. Of course, in that meantime we had all played wargames like Warhammer and Warhammer 40k and grown accustomed to that style so it was awkward to come back and start playing on a grid. Some of the rules, like no facing (or maybe I should say facing not having any bearing on flanking) and the 5 foot step (another I don't recall being in 3.0.... at least we never used it) were some pretty big adjustments for us to make. So we just said "let's go back to what we are familiar with and house rule it. And when I discovered Scotty and his tile system and started making mine, they all loved it. Now on occasion, we still us a grid for some things (and I definitely use them when planning out the dungeons) the group switches gears without a hitch. Anyhow, sorry to necro a slightly aging thread here, just adding in my 2 silvers worth of insight.... * i.e. He has his back to you
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pghfett
Cardboard Collector
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Post by pghfett on Aug 7, 2013 17:45:52 GMT -5
Pffstttt....
Thanks to you Scotty I'll always be "OFF THE GRID"
Mike
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Post by northtroll on Sept 20, 2013 14:08:20 GMT -5
I'm Dwight, and I'm new here. First of all, DM SCOTTY, THANK YOU FOR YOUR AWESOME CRAFTING! I mean it. In a world where game books cost $50.00, your approach makes sense! Thank you for making gaming sensible. Secondly, the whole gridded thing is something that just seemed to get grafted on to D&D artificially. Sure Gygax spelled out how to do it in the DM's Guide, but that was never really something I experienced as a gamer. Why did it take 25 years for somebody to dowsize 1"= 10' to 1"=5'? That's a rhetorical question....
These days I mostly play miniature historical wargames or light hearted fun wargames. I am the father of two wonderful kids who love their dad's minis. I think making some terrain the way you do will make them both want to play D&D with dad.
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apokism
Cardboard Collector
If a Treant fell over in the woods, would it make a sound?
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Post by apokism on Sept 21, 2013 1:49:25 GMT -5
There is a grid in Dnd? Heresy!!
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Post by steveolol on Sept 23, 2013 18:47:34 GMT -5
DM scotty your a mad genius bro but i do play grid not going to bash you your style is your style i just go by grid system and that works for me doesn't mean i cant use your ideas i just make sure they fit in squares
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sgtslag
Paint Manipulator
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Post by sgtslag on Sept 28, 2013 9:30:51 GMT -5
I play both RPG's ( Grid? What's that?), as well as fantasy/historical miniatures games. I began using grids when I purchased my first MegaMat, from Chessex. I love the convenience of the grid, but I am not a slave to it. In mini's games, there is no grid: I use the square base of the mini's to determine flanking/facing/etc.; I use templates for spell effects, though in the mass battle game of 2nd Ed. BattleSystem, the scale is 1" = 10 feet, so a Fireball spell is only 2" in blast diameter, affecting only two figures' worth of 'men', or 20 men, maximum. It takes a little imagination to determine what is/is not flanking, but it is not difficult; rules lawyers should be politely, but firmly, advised to relax -- barring that, expel them from your game, explaining why, so they have a reason to reform their ways. The idea that using a grid is playing a boardgame, is a personal hang-up, which I do not have (build a bridge, and you can get over it... ). There are no Game Police busting down my doors, disrupting my games. I find the whole discussion laughable. Play how you like to play -- the only people watching, are those you invite to do so. For me, that is my players, and we all enjoy "our" style of play. Game on, and laugh at the jokesters -- they're sad attitudes really are quite funny. Cheers!
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kthulu
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Painting anthro mini's
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Post by kthulu on Oct 4, 2013 22:20:04 GMT -5
Variety is the spice of life... grid like tiles work fine in certain stone dungeons, but for caves and plains no way; it is that simple for me. Why be passionate about any particular anything... I have seen some absolutely gorgeous stone work that was technically grid, and I wouldn't want to change it.
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Post by Efilion on Oct 5, 2013 1:16:24 GMT -5
Variety is the spice of life... grid like tiles work fine in certain stone dungeons, but for caves and plains no way; it is that simple for me. Why be passionate about any particular anything... I have seen some absolutely gorgeous stone work that was technically grid, and I wouldn't want to change it. The detail is that most people get a little mixed up about a tile with tiles and grids... most think they're the same and dismiss a good tile oportunity because of that
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