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Post by hasbinbad on Oct 14, 2012 23:23:35 GMT -5
So this is something I've kicked around a lot about 2.5D stuff. I don't like that it's hard to have a catwalk in 2.5D because you'd have to in effect put two minis in the same place at the same time and just agree that one is under the other.
I was just thinking about Scotty's barn with the werewolves, and what he really did there was abstract the loft area where the wolves were hiding to the side of the bottom floor, but it was understood to be above it.
I was just wondering if that idea gave anyone else more ideas, because I'm kind of stuck trying to figure out a way to use catwalks on my walls, and by extension any over/under situation on 2.5d terrain.
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hastur
Cardboard Collector
Posts: 15
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Post by hastur on Oct 15, 2012 5:18:06 GMT -5
Technically speaking if you are doing 2.5D terrain you can just elevate the walkways in the third dimension. I'm not really seeing the problem, this is generally an acceptable thing to do when working with this sort of terrain.
Mister Scotty has already demonstrated how to craft pillars, you would just craft the pillars and then do the walkways to put between them.
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Post by dm1scotty on Oct 15, 2012 9:52:24 GMT -5
Depending on how many walkways and how parallel they are you could do them almost like giant steps with the understanding that one was directly above the other instead of next to it. You could also cut strips that you lay next to the board when someone is on another level with the same understanding.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 3, 2012 2:16:40 GMT -5
The thing I really like about this 2.5D crafting is how flexible it is as a representative medium. To that end I think it should be said that I think, personally, that 2.5D is a bit of a Misnomer, because, yeah, it's mostly flat, and yeah, it also has depth, but not so much to get in the way. However, why can't 2.5D sometimes become 3D, or sometimes 2D? In some situations, a flat piece of paper can be very useful to represent certain aspects of a game in a pinch. And, to nod towards DM Scotty's recomendation to keep things cheap, you can't get a whole lot cheaper than a single sheet of paper. Ink is the most expensive: But on the flip side sometimes you need a 3D piece just cause you have to. making them using the same methods isn't too hard. One of my first crafting projects for wargaming was a terrain piece that was representative of a natural mesa or cavern rock formation with a piece specifically crafted to bridge over a lower area. I cut a single piece of foamboard (which turned out to be a mistake in crafting) that I glued to the top level of two compiled rock formations built by stacking rough cut, circular bits of foamboard upwards on top of eachother. The effect was to create a piece that honestly I would be happy to use even with whatever else I make using the DM Craft ideas (That is, 2.5D). It's not much different than creating multi leveled tiles that DM Scotty has described, just that it is more 3D than most other pieces. So in short, I think that having a variety of pieces that work together for various purposes, sometimes using abstracting like in the barn scenario, and (in a big pinch) using a more 3D piece...well, whatever makes your gaming experience worthwhile, right? P.S. Excuse my long posts. I tend to get wordy
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Post by dm1scotty on Nov 3, 2012 9:57:03 GMT -5
The thing I really like about this 2.5D crafting is how flexible it is as a representative medium. To that end I think it should be said that I think, personally, that 2.5D is a bit of a Misnomer, because, yeah, it's mostly flat, and yeah, it also has depth, but not so much to get in the way. However, why can't 2.5D sometimes become 3D, or sometimes 2D? In some situations, a flat piece of paper can be very useful to represent certain aspects of a game in a pinch. And, to nod towards DM Scotty's recomendation to keep things cheap, you can't get a whole lot cheaper than a single sheet of paper. Ink is the most expensive: But on the flip side sometimes you need a 3D piece just cause you have to. making them using the same methods isn't too hard. One of my first crafting projects for wargaming was a terrain piece that was representative of a natural mesa or cavern rock formation with a piece specifically crafted to bridge over a lower area. I cut a single piece of foamboard (which turned out to be a mistake in crafting) that I glued to the top level of two compiled rock formations built by stacking rough cut, circular bits of foamboard upwards on top of eachother. The effect was to create a piece that honestly I would be happy to use even with whatever else I make using the DM Craft ideas (That is, 2.5D). It's not much different than creating multi leveled tiles that DM Scotty has described, just that it is more 3D than most other pieces. So in short, I think that having a variety of pieces that work together for various purposes, sometimes using abstracting like in the barn scenario, and (in a big pinch) using a more 3D piece...well, whatever makes your gaming experience worthwhile, right? P.S. Excuse my long posts. I tend to get wordy Thanks for the post and I couldn't agree more.
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Post by hasbinbad on Nov 3, 2012 13:42:03 GMT -5
The thing I really like about this 2.5D crafting is how flexible it is as a representative medium. To that end I think it should be said that I think, personally, that 2.5D is a bit of a Misnomer, because, yeah, it's mostly flat, and yeah, it also has depth, but not so much to get in the way. However, why can't 2.5D sometimes become 3D, or sometimes 2D? In some situations, a flat piece of paper can be very useful to represent certain aspects of a game in a pinch. And, to nod towards DM Scotty's recomendation to keep things cheap, you can't get a whole lot cheaper than a single sheet of paper. Ink is the most expensive: But on the flip side sometimes you need a 3D piece just cause you have to. making them using the same methods isn't too hard. One of my first crafting projects for wargaming was a terrain piece that was representative of a natural mesa or cavern rock formation with a piece specifically crafted to bridge over a lower area. I cut a single piece of foamboard (which turned out to be a mistake in crafting) that I glued to the top level of two compiled rock formations built by stacking rough cut, circular bits of foamboard upwards on top of eachother. The effect was to create a piece that honestly I would be happy to use even with whatever else I make using the DM Craft ideas (That is, 2.5D). It's not much different than creating multi leveled tiles that DM Scotty has described, just that it is more 3D than most other pieces. So in short, I think that having a variety of pieces that work together for various purposes, sometimes using abstracting like in the barn scenario, and (in a big pinch) using a more 3D piece...well, whatever makes your gaming experience worthwhile, right? P.S. Excuse my long posts. I tend to get wordy I like your long posts. Someone else was posting pictures of "dungeon blocks" or something that he painted to give terrain a 3d aspect.. I think that might be worth looking more into. I've sort of been on a crafting hiatus while my brain works out my recent experiences with how I want to go about this wall/keep project I'm working on. I hope to have something more to share by tonight.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 6, 2012 3:53:11 GMT -5
OK, so I have been putting some serious thought into how to realistically construct a catwalk that perhaps isn’t quite so abstracted but can be easily built and won’t put an extra burden on crafting it. ‘twould take away from the point here at DM Craft, correct? Anyway, I think I came up with a solution that is (hopefully) elegant, pleasing to the eye, and functional. However, since I am still working on getting my technophobia under control and figuring out how to realistically get pictures worked out so I can post up a gallery (Which means also that I need to craft a few things to have a gallery to display…), I will have to give some step by step instructions. If DM Scotty thinks this is a good enough idea, I would be more than happy for him to make a video on how to do this to show people who aren’t good at taking written instructions. But that is if he has time to do so (naturally) away from his other projects. Anyway: As a quick and easy demonstration of how to do this, I am going to suggest that you start with the 2D tree tiles (The ones that have leaves represented as the base, with the stump in the middle). For this the stump has to be *as close to round as possible*. Good, now we are going to make a trunk, ie a pillar. Get a piece of thick card (printing cardstock works best IMO, as it is more flexible). You are going to want to craft this “pillar” in a tapering style…not so much that it slopes a lot, but enough that it is perhaps 75% the size of the bottom end. Note: This is just for effect really, so a perfect cylindrical pillar can work. Also make sure that the base fits the size *as close as possible* to the “stump” on your tree tile. A few extra pointers on constructing your trunk: -use small cardstock bands that are glued to the INTERIOR of the stump for extra support. -A nice touch would be to place a cork at the top as a plug for the upper end of the pillar, and then you can use it to pin in armatures for tree branches. Just a suggestion. -Don’t forget to add texture for the trunk using the glue gun! Other methods may help too (glue+T.P. can do wonders to give texture in very thin strands) Alright, now we are going to craft a tree village scaffold! Yay! Cut a circle out of cardboard approximately 3 inches in diameter (no more than 4 inches, at most!), then cut a smaller circle out of the first one. Note that the inner circle MUST be smaller in diameter than the base of your tree trunk pillar. Cut out three, evenly spaced (roughly) notches approximately ½ centimeter out of the INNER edge of your donut shaped tile piece. Also cut two notches at any place you feel is appropriate on the OUTER edge of your donut. Now, here you have some options. You can do the following steps by gluing each of these pieces together (Which is ok and certainly will help to make the pieces stronger over all. Storage is the only real issue), OR, you can have these pieces separated in order to make them easy for storage. Lets move on: Take three strips that you have cut previously for making tile walls, cut them into 2 inch lengths, and then cut a notch into them at a *slight* angle closer to one end of the 2 inch strip (say, 1.5 inches from another end). I would suggest that you align the angle to match the slope of your trunk, as best you can. Now, fit these strips into the inner edge notches of your donut tile. Glue as needed. Now, get two *thicker* strips (I’d say 1.5 to 2 centimeters in width by 3 centimeters in length). Cut them so that they taper down to a near point (At this stage it should have 5 uneven flat edges). Now cut a notch in it a ½ centimeter (These should NOT be angled), and glue them on (as needed). Fit the now fully crafted scaffold onto the trunk. If you crafted it right (And please feel free to correct my horrible math and do things so that they make sense to you in the process of crafting), then this scaffold should fit onto your trunk and look like a catwalk around the trunk. Now for embellishments: -Toothpicks and string to make a barrier along the edges (so that those unbalanced humans don’t fall off the edge to their untimely dooms) -Paint (obviously) -you can potentially craft branches that go *under* the scaffold that have leaves to make it look more like the characters are up in the actual tree. -Cut out a section of the circle to make variable scaffolding -Take inspiration from circular stair cases and have fun making various levels. Now, rinse, repeat, and, once you have a forest of scaffolded tree village walkways, noy you need to make bridges. That is where the outer edge bits of cardboard come in handy. After all, you needed something to lash the string to for your rope bridges, right? Have fun. Please don’t scream at me for giving horrible directions. I’ll be back in a week (After my vacation to Mexico).
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 6, 2012 4:02:40 GMT -5
also, to give an alternative idea for creating upper floors easily: Craft pillars as per DM Scotty's videos, EXCEPT, don't craft a base or a top. When you craft your initial tile that you want to use for this set up, glue on a square or circular piece of cardboard that matches the interior circumfrence of your crafted tile. The tile can also be used to put statuary (As per another DM Craft vid ), so that's a bonus. Now, make a second level. You can either A) Make a whole tile, or, if you want something that functions like a catwalk that looks over and/or goes around the first level, cut it so that there is a whole in the middle (as per your needs in design). Make sure that the walkable space is *AT LEAST* as wide on the pathways as the pillars are in width (And preferably more so by at least a quarter inch all the way around) Glue another square that will fit into the pillars at the top to the *bottom* of the tile. Now, place your bottom level tile, set your pillars onto the support squares, and then place the second level so that the support squares fit into the top of the pillar. Viola!
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Post by dm1scotty on Nov 6, 2012 4:22:52 GMT -5
As always I love peoples input and suggestions. The 2.5 method is an abstract way to represent the world that can become more abstract as you represent things like vertical distance. Although I would argue less abstract than than traditional flat dungeon tiles with no dimension and grids.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 6, 2012 4:37:54 GMT -5
the 2.5D concept is wonderful in that it fulfills the need to have something more substantial than a flat playing mat and grids, and looks great on the table I think. I won't ever say that 2.5D isn't enough. But this thread got my brain working, so I took some of your ideas and gave them a more 3D remodel to hopefully help with the problem of dealing with upper areas that might need to be represented simultaneously with a lower area. I tried to keep it as close to the spirit of 2.5D however, as well as simple and cheap. Hope it helps in the long run (And that someone was actually able to make sense of it).
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Post by hasbinbad on Nov 6, 2012 4:54:06 GMT -5
2.5d is brilliant. it's so versatile!
My game yesterday was run with my 3d volcano foot, some 2.5d terrain, and the 2d mat .. brilliant.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 6, 2012 13:09:22 GMT -5
OK, so this morning I crafted up a very simple proof of concept on the tree village scaffolds so I could make sure the idea I presented would actually work worth a damn. It actually turned out alot better than I thought on the first test go (in the aspect of how easy it was to craft the basic construct). After having done the actual work, a couple thoughts came up:
-Wider circular scaffolds are prefered. I know I said at least 3 inches in diameter for the actual circle, but you may want to increase that size a bit. As needed.
-Having a pillar (Trunk) that is bigger in diameter is better, and also the longer the better seems to be the case (This is a tree village, so of course they would have to be huge trees...). This is so there is more space on the actual scaffold (The wider the trunk initially, the bigger the circle required for the saffold, which equals more space on the scaffold for mini's)
-The sloping style for the pillar (trunk) is definately better than a straight down cylindrical pillar. It's also a little easier to craft the pillar this way, and it gives a wider space for glue to be applied (Just wrap the trunk around like you are making a telescope....we've all done it in school. Don't pretend you haven't...)
Also, I'm a little unhappy with the supports I crafted, so I am going to be playing around with different concepts to (hopefully) make it sturdier all the way around for the scaffold. When I get back from Mexico I'll try to make up an actual forest with these scaffolds and try to get a picture up. If I'm lucky I can get the whole thing done by the end of this month (That should include at least 5 actual trees with the scaffolds and rope bridges...).
Note that I am a bit pessimistic about finishing projects, so if things go more optimistically, I may get it done faster with more actual trees to show you guys (Again, assuming I can get a picture working).
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