thedmg
Room Planner
Posts: 327
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Post by thedmg on Jul 9, 2013 17:50:38 GMT -5
South Africa also only got TV in 1978... It too was considered subversive...
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Post by evilolle on Jul 10, 2013 14:57:17 GMT -5
Concerning AoO, isn't it easiest to say that if the moving person/monster is within reach of opponents AoO, then it is an AoO? Meaning that if A is moving close to X(who has a shortsword) then he provokes an AoO? And if same A is also moving so that Z (who has a spear, and thus reach 10ft) can get a AoO, then A gets attacked twice?
Just checking!
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Post by ashrothedm on Jul 10, 2013 15:54:13 GMT -5
Yes, that is easy, and that is basically the suggestion above.
The elaboration on that is because this scenario will happen:
The players are in a square room that is 20' across. Monster X stands 13' away (no grid forcing them to 15') so Player A moves in behind him to set up flank. He picks up his mini, and plops it down 18' away, right behind Monster X. As the DM, you begin to roll your AoO. Player A says: "Whoa! I was obviously running all the way around the perimeter of the room, so there should be no AoO!"
From the observer's perspective, Player A just blinks from point A to point B. What path did he take?
If you had a 4x4 grid, it would take 7 squares of movement to get behind it on the long route the player is suggesting, and he still would have provoked moving from space 6 to space 7.
The point above is that you can expect that reaction. Did the character run the straight path or the out of the way path that circles in behind?
Some fun things to think about before deciding which is more common:
A fighter steps into the room and sees an orc, he moves quickly around the perimeter of the room (because he has initiative) while the orc does nothing but watch as this berserker circles behind him. I can imagine the stupid expression on the poor creature's face as he watches this happen. Try yelling a battle cry as you run along the outside of your living room, carefully setting up an attack from behind on your coffee table.
Imagine, because it is your default method of travel, that you go to the mall, and walk around the perimeter. Try it in your own house/apartment sometime. Better yet, wait until you need to use the bathroom. Run as fast as you can, but follow the walls on your right!
Your stove just caught fire, and you have 6 seconds to get there: perimeter path obviously.
Even in a dungeon scenario, traveling the perimeter, hugging the wall, and searching for traps as you go every 10 feet, is abnormal. In combat, taking an indirect route to somewhere is not expected or predictable.
In essence, the threatened area is simple to figure out. If they make a significant move through it, ignoring the thing threatening it, then there is an AoO. Getting the players in line because they will at some point say that they "obviously take the indirect route" is where the real issue rests.
I think it makes the most sense that you expect the direct line, and if someone takes another route, or uses another method of travel, they call that out before blinking between locations.
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thedmg
Room Planner
Posts: 327
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Post by thedmg on Jul 10, 2013 17:37:23 GMT -5
Hugging the walls is a very common tactic when lurking around. It prevents attacks from the wall side. Also you need to bare in mind that a round of combat happens simultaneously. So the guy making his way behind the opponent is doing it at the same time as the frontal assault and the opponents initial attack. Except during a surprise round. In any "sword" fight people definitely do not move in a straight line, unless charging. The idea is that you avoid the opponents weapon. As far as moving within a 10ft reach the AoO only happens twice if the opponent has that skill or ability. Only one AoO happens per round, otherwise if you were surrounded you could get multiple attacks per round, potentially.
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Post by ashrothedm on Jul 10, 2013 19:26:30 GMT -5
Sure, in a combat, people do not move in straight lines. But mechanically, what is better to assume: That movement is straight, or that movement always takes a path 5' away from obstacles?
It's kind of like marching down a hall in a dungeon. I don't even assume that the group is being somewhat cautious, and definitely not that they are searching every 10'. If they go from point A to point B, which way did they go?
While this is not the same, I think it illustrates my point: You are playing checkers. Going right jumps one opponent's piece, going left jumps 6 pieces, and both moves end in the same space. If, when playing, I plucked my piece from the start position and placed it into the end position, which path would you assume that I took?
In a sword fight, I go from position 1, to position 2, and we are trying to establish which path was chosen (one resulting in an AoO, and one avoiding it) Do you assume "straight", "safe", or "no assumption."
Even with the grid, this is a common situation. Surprise them with reach and you may see it a little more often. What I'm suggesting is that if you are to make an assumption, I favor assuming a straight path. My players at least, tend to elaborate when they are doing anything out of the ordinary, and running around the perimeter of a room, even in a fight, is not ordinary.
One last point: If there were two adjacent halls that they could fully traverse in one move, one with a trap and one without, and Player A picks his mini up, moves it to the destination end of the halls. How would you know if he triggered the trap? The path that they choose in combat is the same thing, and relevant to the situation. There is no need for grids or grid-less to neuter AoO, but in either case, the path and method of travel are critical bits of information. With grid-less, they can't count out spaces like a board game. Having some convention at the table will help alleviate all of those little issues.
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argiope
Paint Manipulator
Posts: 138
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Post by argiope on Jul 10, 2013 22:22:29 GMT -5
I actually hate the AoO rules in 3.5 D&D. It is cumbersome and adds very little to the game. I noticed in 5th edition (Next, or what ever vague name they are giving it), they dropped most of the AoO rules and the battles do not seem much better. The one place I do see AoO being interesting is if a creature has reach greater than the other character then they would get the free attack as the less-reachie character has to move into hit.
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thedmg
Room Planner
Posts: 327
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Post by thedmg on Jul 11, 2013 0:37:01 GMT -5
I do what you said and if they do not declare where they are moving, they are assumed to have moved the shortest possible route (therefor straight), even if going around corners, what ever is the shortest distance is assumed to be the path they took. My players pick up the minis and trace over the path the character takes and then place them back down again - eliminating the assumed "blink".
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Aug 4, 2013 4:28:11 GMT -5
Back when I started playing, in 1979, I was eight. As you can imagine, eight year olds are not sticklers for "the rules". (At least most I know/knew). But we did stick to the "main" rule of D&D as we knew it: Have fun! And nothing has changed in 30+ years from my perspective. Even into the 80's and 90's we viewed the gridded maps in the modules and source books as a guide for describing the size of the dungeon/area we were in. We too, used the 7/8th inch grid large sheets of graph paper to draw/map out the dungeons on, but never did we confine our movements to linear or diagonal within those squares. Nor did we use mini's. I remember getting my first mini as a teenager and painting it (horribly I might add) and bringing it to a game as a representation of my character. It sat next to my character sheet so someone could see what my character looked like. Not until many years later did they become as widely available and used as they are today. Hell, even when we did finally start to place them on the table saying 'this is where my character is standing", there were never any monster minis on the table for us to target (Well maybe, on occasion, we used the oversized giant d20 or a Mcdonalds toy and said "This is the where the Beholder is at in the cavern." But that was rare, rare, rare.....). We all talked about how cool it would be to have a dragon or beholder or rust monster on the table, but never did we think to limit ourselves by using grid squares for movement. Not that others did not. I'm sure there were those who felt it made sense. We just never did. *shrug*
Anyhow, 30+ years later and we still focusing on the Prime Directive, so to speak: HAVE FUN!!! And if your group is doing that, then no matter how you are doing it, you are doing it right......
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AJ
Room Planner
Posts: 315
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Post by AJ on Aug 4, 2013 8:15:05 GMT -5
The only real gem, as far as I am concerned (and with my limited read through of it) with D&D Next, is the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic.. it is awesome in play. Here is how I work it.. if you see a move or condition that adds +1 to so and so.. replace it with "Roll 2d20 and use the highest result". Now look at your combat.. is the Gnoll making a swipe at a Halfling who is running through melee range to get to the other side? That Halfling is small and moving quickly.. Gnoll rolls 2d20 and uses the lowest result. Is that Halfling charging over difficult terrain, past a Gnoll who took a swing, in poor lighting conditions? You guessed it, roll Disadvantage.
You can see how much math this avoids, and it speeds up combat considerably. I even rewrote some of the character's attack powers and just replaced the hit bonuses with advantage rolls.. the players may argue about the philosophy of it, but the moment they get to roll two dice instead of one, something magical happens, and they just don't care any more.
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Post by dm1scotty on Aug 4, 2013 15:42:59 GMT -5
I use the new advantage/disadvantage rules also.
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Aug 4, 2013 16:11:11 GMT -5
That does sound really cool and intuitive. I am thinking I am going to have to download the Next test rules (if they are still up) and check the rest of them out. Some of the things I have heard sound positive.
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Post by leolad72 on Aug 4, 2013 19:51:55 GMT -5
I gotta agree with monkeywithtacos' comment about following the Prime Directive....or to paraphrase Mr. Wonka: WE are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams. All in all, if you read through all the posts in this thread, it makes a great argument for A) Going Gridless and B) Measureless Movement.
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Aug 5, 2013 0:50:40 GMT -5
Honestly, since switching over to using the tiles instead of the dry erase grid map we had been using since we started playing again I think my group has picked up the tape measure a total of 3 times to check distance. We all have a pretty good eye for distance and even those that aren't sure will say to me "This is what I want my char to do" and I'll either say "yeah" or "nay" depending on whether or not it is close and how cool/cinematic it happens to be.
For ex, I had the halfling monk in my group want to do a charge attack on a dire rat that was up on top of a box. He described what he wanted to do, which was charge foward and onto the box that was in front of him and jump off and do a flying kick into the rat. Something was just out of his range if I disallowed the charge because it wasn't in a pefectly straight line, and he had to run/jump onto the box. (Very cool and very cinematic, imho) So I told him yeah, go for it, but if you fumble it could get really bad, and that in order to do it he'd have to also make an acrobatics check. He said no worries and proceeded to succeed on the acro check and roll a natural 20 on the attack roll....(halflings really are lucky, lol) The whole table was cheering for him, including me..... and THAT is what the game is about as far as I am concerned.
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Post by belatucadras on Aug 5, 2013 9:01:40 GMT -5
My kids used to play that Pokemon card game. Now.when I say played, I mean they collected the cards they liked and made up there own rules on how to play. I saw them playing one day, and having played Magic the Gathering for a few years, saw that they were playing 'wrong' and sat them down and explained the rules to them. They have not played since.
Motto learned: Do what feels right and is fun. As long as all the players are in agreement, life is good. Don't let your dumbass dad explain the rules to you.
This was a few years ago. They still give me a hard time about it.
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