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Post by danielc on Feb 10, 2013 23:10:28 GMT -5
I still don't understand the gamers who have played miniature wargames having a problem with Gridless. I have played thousands of games using minis on a table and using a ruler to measure movement etc.
Stargrunt, Warhammer 40k, Sword & Flame, Napoleon's Battles, and Flames of War just to name a few. Each had no grid. Each moved along a ruler. Movement was not along predrawn grids.
Yes I have heard people I played 40k with whine about the idea of D&D without a grid. Did WotC do that good of a job brainwashing folks?
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Post by onethatwas on Feb 10, 2013 23:42:31 GMT -5
to answer this, I am going to use an example that comes to me from way back in my Snowboarding days.
Now, When you are Snowboarding, there are obviously alot of things to know about and understand. However, before you even get there, you have to decide what sort of snowboard you are going to ride. Of course, you can simply skip this process by renting your boards and go with whatever you are given. Which is a crap chute. But for those who don't do it as a regular hobby (or as a career, as I did in my not-so-far-off youth) sure, it works.
BUT, if you ARE going to purchase your own, you start looking at brand names, and for Snowboards, one brand ALWAYS pops up. Burton.
Now, most, if not all Snowboard companies have a very standard set up...something universal that can apply to every type of binding. It's called a 6 pack (Although more often it is actually an "8 pack"...which refers to the drill inserts for the binding to attach to the board, laid out side by side like a 6 pack of sodas). Not Burton. Burton makes their snowboards so that in order to ride the Burton snowboard, you have to purchase Burton Bindings as well, because their screw inserts are NOT laid out in a 6-pack pattern. Or you would have to purchase Burton compatable bindings anyways (Which means Burton, having the patent on the binding layout, gets to charge other companies a fee for producing their patent).
Now at first ALOT of boarders believe that Burton is the "best snowboard evar!" Not True. Burton is actually a good snowboard, but they aren't the best. The reason they can get away with selling snowboards at ungodly prices is because of the artwork. In truth, having a Burton presents a number of problems in that you will *always* have to purchase Burton Bindings for your board, and they are still not the absolute best board making company out there. It's a fluke, but one that made Burton rich as a company.
But you will have a hard time convincing alot of snowboarders that are only in their first couple of years that Burton boards are not the end all be all of boards. In all honesty, I would vote for Solomon as being comparable to Burton, without that pesky binding business.
So, what does that have to do with Gridless play?
Those Grid users are under the mistaken belief that their gaming system *requires* grids to play, and in truth D&D and alot of systems do not make it immediately easy to go gridless...some rules require the simple design of grids to accomplish the task you wish to perform in the game. So in essence, these gamers are like those people who think Burton Boards are "Teh Rather Awesome."
Gridless Play is like those people who are veteran enough to realize that Grids are silly. Like those snowboarders who know that the only thing special about a Burton Board that you can't get elsewhere is the artwork on the board.
And then there is DM Scotty, who is clever enough to show those silly Grid Users that they don't need to conform to the rules, and there is an easy fix to resolve any issues that the grid system may "require." So in essence, he is like those people who specially frankenstein their bindings in order to use regular bindings on a Burton Snowboard. It's a step towards realizing that Grided Play is an unnecessary evil...but here are the tools to help you come to that realization.
So, sorry for the long reply, but I figured it may be helpful to get some analogy stuff going.
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Post by dm1scotty on Feb 11, 2013 1:51:52 GMT -5
It baffles me how much of a problem people have with going gridless. It seems to me that a lot of DM's want to do it or try it but they say their players will throw a fit. Grids really ruin the immersion for me because all I can see are the game-board like grids. I played with a group of newbies last night and they really loved my setups. Being totally new to D&D 4e they had no idea they were even supposed to be playing on grids. I just told them that a "square" is one inch and walla, problem solved.
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Post by dm1scotty on Feb 11, 2013 1:55:56 GMT -5
I say to all the floundering DM's out there to just tell your players this is the way we are playing. If they throw a hissy fit or roll around on the floor tell them that you won't DM anymore. Most players do not want to DM and will relent. If not, tell them to find a new game with a grid kissing DM.
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Post by hideousprime on Feb 11, 2013 4:52:26 GMT -5
Its been said before but you can ignore the grid. I use my old tile pieces and maps but still have them use measuring sticks
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argiope
Paint Manipulator
Posts: 138
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Post by argiope on Feb 11, 2013 9:21:46 GMT -5
As a recent convert to the gridless system I can say it is the best way to play from the DM's point of view. We are going to have a great battle with a raging Umber Hulk in a city and I have been building paper models of buildings (http://www.davesgames.net/) and am excited of having the freedom to run the chaotic battle in the streets without worrying about grids. If I had to use the gridded mat we have I would have made the battle smaller and less epic. Being free from the gird allows the DM more freedom to layout an encounter and make it more fluid.
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Post by dm1scotty on Feb 11, 2013 9:56:05 GMT -5
Couldn't have said it better myself argiope. the grid is very limiting.
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Post by danielc on Feb 11, 2013 12:54:54 GMT -5
I guess if you had only played with Grids I would understand the worry about going gridless, but for those who had been gridless in the past (old AD&Ders) or have played wargames that are 100% gridless, what is the hangup? Anyone who has played a wargame without grids knows how easy it is. Yet there are those who just can't imagine D&D without a grid.
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Post by onethatwas on Feb 11, 2013 16:23:14 GMT -5
I guess if you had only played with Grids I would understand the worry about going gridless, but for those who had been gridless in the past (old AD&Ders) or have played wargames that are 100% gridless, what is the hangup? The same hang-up people have over riding Burton Boards or that they are innately "better" simply because they have a big name and are pricey. Most of those people have ridden a different (standard) snowboard, but they still believe the way they do. I think the real issue hinges on that there are a small few rules that are very heavy grid oriented. Not so much you can't work around the rules (As DM Scotty has demonstrated with the various ways to do spell templates really easy...which is one of the major hang-ups) but enough that it's discouraging, simply because it takes some thought to understand how going Gridless works in various, non-standard circumstances.
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slurpy
Room Planner
Posts: 283
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Post by slurpy on Feb 11, 2013 23:49:08 GMT -5
The thing we tend to forget is how easy gridded play is. A mat and a few wet-erase markers, and the DM is good to go! Using those tools, running a game takes practically no time beyond whatever campaign creation/purchasing takes. Between work and school, I barely have time to craft my occasional set pieces and read/alter my campaign materials - I simply don't have the time to create a few rooms every week. Maybe during the summer, when class is out, but nothing is easier on a busy/lazy DM than a gridded mat and drawn-on trees and creeks.
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Post by danielc on Feb 12, 2013 0:19:20 GMT -5
The thing we tend to forget is how easy gridded play is. A mat and a few wet-erase markers, and the DM is good to go! Using those tools, running a game takes practically no time beyond whatever campaign creation/purchasing takes. Your point is well taken, but as I used a roll of butcher paper and a black marker (later I used a set of colored markers) and drew everything freehand without grids for years, I say it is just as easy using the butcher paper, no grids, and poker chips with taped on names. And we were so funny back then, thinking how cool we were. Kicking butts and takeing names. ;D
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spiralbound
Cardboard Collector
Avatar of the God(s) Random
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Post by spiralbound on Feb 12, 2013 15:50:36 GMT -5
One thing that I am looking forward to in going gridless, (recent convert), is being able to have a tiled interior where I am NOT forced to ensure the tiles fit within a multiple of one inch so they can be forced into use as movement markers. I'm looking forward to a tiled floor returning to being just a visual aspect, not an enforcer of rules which constrain movement. ;D
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dmbenjamin
Tool Gatherer
why does it always have to be snakes?
Posts: 50
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Post by dmbenjamin on Feb 17, 2013 15:27:15 GMT -5
alas poor us.....the only black sheep in a sea of wotc mind slaves
*remember kids-only buy official D&D products such as miniatures from a official wizards of the coast dealer
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slurpy
Room Planner
Posts: 283
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Post by slurpy on Feb 17, 2013 23:37:09 GMT -5
Didn't they stop making minis?
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Post by danielc on Feb 18, 2013 0:20:08 GMT -5
Didn't they stop making minis? They still sell minis in their games. The new Dungeon Command have PPMs in them and their larger games (three I believe) have unpainted minis. PS: Board Game Geek has pictures of all the various minis for the sets released.
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Post by hideousprime on Feb 18, 2013 15:13:06 GMT -5
Yes and I can't wait for the new dungeon command out today. But I bought it at a discount online so I have to wait for shipping....boooooo
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dmbenjamin
Tool Gatherer
why does it always have to be snakes?
Posts: 50
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Post by dmbenjamin on Feb 19, 2013 12:05:36 GMT -5
yes unfortunatly the quit making the official D&D minis due to them not making enough profit on them......stupid hasbro
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Post by dm1scotty on Feb 19, 2013 12:39:30 GMT -5
One thing that I am looking forward to in going gridless, (recent convert), is being able to have a tiled interior where I am NOT forced to ensure the tiles fit within a multiple of one inch so they can be forced into use as movement markers. I'm looking forward to a tiled floor returning to being just a visual aspect, not an enforcer of rules which constrain movement. ;D Couldn't of said it better myself. The grid is so restricting of creativity because grid users are always thinking about how they can incorporate the grid in their designs instead of thinking how can I make this terrain "off the hook"!
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Post by onethatwas on Feb 19, 2013 12:46:04 GMT -5
I still design my dungeons using gridded paper, but that's for the convenience of using 1 grid=1 inch, and because I have all my tiles crafted modularly, I want to have a rough idea of what fits where. when I make the tiles, I don't bother making any grids unless I feel it is for an aesthetic quality (And then I make them in some areas to represent that the grid is there, but fade it out into the main area so that it's not a primary feature of the tile).
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Post by danielc on Feb 20, 2013 11:57:00 GMT -5
yes unfortunatly the quit making the official D&D minis due to them not making enough profit on them......stupid hasbro So you don't count the minis in the Dungeon Command sets? Including the new sculpts? Or does it only count when they are random?
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slurpy
Room Planner
Posts: 283
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Post by slurpy on Feb 21, 2013 4:47:56 GMT -5
So you don't count the minis in the Dungeon Command sets? Including the new sculpts? Or does it only count when they are random? Randomized/opened packs. Not many of the Dungeon Command minis are making it onto eBay or gaming store shelves as individuals.
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Post by danielc on Feb 21, 2013 13:41:47 GMT -5
So you don't count the minis in the Dungeon Command sets? Including the new sculpts? Or does it only count when they are random? Randomized/opened packs. Not many of the Dungeon Command minis are making it onto eBay or gaming store shelves as individuals. Can't speak for gaming store shelves but I saw and still see them on ebay. Also several of the ebay sellers have them in their ebay stores. That is how I added two more Trolls to my collection just a few weeks ago.
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dmbenjamin
Tool Gatherer
why does it always have to be snakes?
Posts: 50
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Post by dmbenjamin on Feb 21, 2013 20:17:12 GMT -5
Uh...I meant the ones that were made for d&D and/or the d&d miniatures game
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Post by evilolle on May 11, 2013 15:24:28 GMT -5
I just started making my own tiles three days ago. One large forest tile(I admit is wrong and will make more smaller for later use) and several dungeon tiles with different turns and like. I even created a river crossing with steping stones and some forest path also. I am looking soooo much forward to next saturday to play my second Pathfinder session. Have played D&D since the red basic set! I started playing some 26 years ago and dont see why we have not changed to gridless before. And I say that even before I have tried it!
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